Athens to experience 50°C during the summer/ Greek Ministry of Climate Change

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Ferreiro

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The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.

The wamrest official ever in Europe recognised is the one of Elefsina. I have strong doubts, looking at the site being possibly near a large tarmac aerobase not unlike Sevilla (one station in Sevilla is completely useless, but still used as oficial BTW. I have seen the pictures: it is absurd).
I have also looked at some agro stations surrounding Sevilla and especially at night these show strong, strong diversions from Seviall Aeropuerto. I remember last year somehting like 24 C on average at the Airport but all surrounding stations just outside the city near 21,5 C....On average over july.

I think Amending could talk a lot about Catenanuova. I'll wait for his answer.

In Seville area there are 3 official meteorological stations of AEMET: San Pablo Airport, Tablada and CMT. Difference between them is not so big.
For instance, June 2011, average mininum temperature

CMT 19.7ºC
San Pablo 19.42ºC
Tablada 18.68ºC

http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-...d_min-DESC&label=temperaturas&Filtrar=Filtrar

 


mesogeiakos

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The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.

The wamrest official ever in Europe recognised is the one of Elefsina. I have strong doubts, looking at the site being possibly near a large tarmac aerobase not unlike Sevilla (one station in Sevilla is completely useless, but still used as oficial BTW. I have seen the pictures: it is absurd).
I have also looked at some agro stations surrounding Sevilla and especially at night these show strong, strong diversions from Seviall Aeropuerto. I remember last year somehting like 24 C on average at the Airport but all surrounding stations just outside the city near 21,5 C....On average over july.


Doubt by all means,point being that not only Elefsina but also Tatoi registered the 48C in 1977 and this is difficult to refute.I mean by all means try to discredit a similar value on two areas of Greater Athens on the same day in 1977.It would be interesting.

Point is that the research conducted by the WMO clearly indicates that the most credible record in Europe as we speak is the 48.0C of the Athens basin.
 

mesogeiakos

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This is Attica today


Note again Nea Filadelfeia coming top but this time Hellenikon registered high values as well since later in the day the Meltemi winds started picking up and Nea Filadelfeia quickly had a dip while Hellenikon rose fast due to the foehn from Mountain Imitos.

As I said it is not rocket science to understand that the dynamics of Attica climate mainly depend from the complexity of the Athens basin,the extreme peninsular geography of Attica,the sea breeze and off course the Meltemi winds which in some areas act as cooling agent while in others it helps the foehn effect.

And do note the consistently low minima of the new Nea Filadelfeia HNMS station,totally in accordance with the old N.Filadelfeia station. For a moment there Amending was having a party bsc he believed that Nea Filadelfeia was closing down but the new station is now in the improved facilities of the Alsos of Nea Filadelfeia and it is already showing the extreme dynamic of the ''kamini tis Neas Filadelfeias'' as we say in Greek.Again today N.Filadelfeia had the highest temperature in Greece with 38.2 after the 38.8 in Serres,according to HNMS

As you can see,overgeneralizations in Attica are simply nonsense.If you do not have a good understanding of the Athens basin and how it behaves during warm days then you will just freak out by trying to understand how different areas react so differently and out of norm.The dynamic factor guys is the complexity of the geomorphology of Attica.This is what need to be accounted for.I told you,we are talking about an area surrounded by 5 mountains,numerous hills,various killometric distance from the sea and different ways in which the winds affect the whole peninsula,we are not talking about a flat chested area like Seville ,which has a fairly predictable climatology outlook

capturegbh.jpg
 

Amending

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Well, if people just look precisely a year ago we can see that various studies have clearly identified a strong heat isle over Athens. These have been detailed studies, showing how the heat isle effect somtimes breaks up etc. I think you can see whn someone is fanatic as Mesogeiakos and seems to lend some personal status from it, it is understandable that he will refute these things also refutes other European hotspots in order to keep Athens where it needs to be for him: at the top for average temperature during the summer.

You are right. Research literature described with accuracy that Athens is characterized by a strong urban heat island effect, which reaches highest temperature differences compared to rural areas during summer, it described how it is distributed inside the city, where it is stronger and where it is weaker, how it reacts to other factors, how it interacts with orography, in which conditions it penetrates inside parks and archeological areas, how it can be moved entirely towards north-northest under the sea breeze effects involving semi-rural northern suburbs etcetera.
One of the better known sides of Athens climatology is the urban heat island. Athens climatology is urban climatology, and UHI is an important conceptual tool to understand it.

I remember a very interesting discussion here in Meteopt about the urban heat island of Athens, where one forum user named JS reported and commented some research literature excerpts, detecting with ease the clear evidences of UHI affection. Another forum user, named Mesogeiakos denied all, and volved to personal attacks and worthless insinuations against him soon, and especially said that there were no words for Elefsina that of course was totally unaffected by UHI for him.
In fact the academic article they were speaking about (Kassomenos and Katsoulis 2006) sais literally that Elefsina records higher temperatures than the urban centre of Athens because of heavy industrialization and thermal pollution over 70% of the days. :D JS was right, and Mesogeiakos perjured scientific research. It is when I read this that I created the nikname Psematakos for him

However:
1) the UHI affection of Elefsina is underexplored
2) In my personal opinion Elefsina (like Athens) would be extremely warm even without UHI (but simulation studies where the urban effect may be removed from the territory do not agree with me all the times)
3) because of (2), in my opinion the +48°C record of Elefsina is acceptable. I don't believe it is the most reliable highest temperature, but perhaps in that day Elefsina really reached 46-47°C, that inside a Stevenson shelter becomes 47-48°C with ease if for few minutes the wind slows down below 2-3 km/h. That value perhaps is OK. I am more skeptical with Tatoi, that with some wind direction gets involved in the UHI of Athens. But if we find that at the time of the record the wind was not slow and it was not S-SW, maybe also the 48°C in Tatoi is good.
Fortunately the deliberate misinformation about a fantastic 48,7°C in Athens that was disseminated throu the internet a few years ago does not appear anymore frequently. The lie assumed different forms and contents but in Greek wikipedia sometimes 48,7, sometimes 48,8°C periodically appears.
 

Amending

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The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.

Italy has not (and has never had) a met office. We are 3rd world country in the political organization of meteorology.
When it was decided to create the WMO, the panorama was
1) lots of hydro-meteo stations, that were (most of them) intended for urban monitoring and hydrological purposes.
2) a few weather stations in airports, operated by military air forces (Aeronautica Militare, A.M.).
At that time the Government decided to join WMO and to assign to AM the task of representing Italy inside it. In my opinion this depends mainly on the fact that mils were embedded in networks of international relations, plus they had some experience of forecasting, plus perhaps some of them also spoke English. :D

AM operates its small group of stations and some of the stations they use are not operated by them but by a company for the organization of civil aviation, named ENAV (total AM+ENAV about 110-120 stations), most in airports. AM handles and list only its own stations and the ENAV ones, that are the only Italian stations having a WMO Id (there is also a WMO station non-AM/non-ENAV, it is Rome-Collegio Romano, operated by UCEA, the typical old observatory without practical interest because of UHI affection and bad and unrepresentative location -urban station in the top of a tower- but antique and prestigious because of its history)
Next to AM, most if not all regions have developed their own network of weather stations and local forecasting service, with appreciable problems of standardization between regions. Most of the stations are excellent automated ones with full instrumentation complying WMO standards and installed and maintained according to WMO guidelines, but some are not and sometimes it is difficult to evaluate the reported values because when one emails to ask, the answer is not 100% sure.
In my opinion, most temperature values of Italian stations non-AM/non-ENAV are reliable given they were measured after 1991-1992, when most of meteo-wreckage manned stations with Stevenson shelter were swept away and replaced with WMO compliant suburban-rural automated stations with multiplates shelters. AM/ENAV stations are most of the times still manned with Stevenson shelter, so I am very prudent with them. It is former Soviet Union Republics-rank technology.

About Catenanuova, I am prudent about its +48,5. Some believe it 100% but I am more prudent about. At that time several other stations hit >=47°C and this seems to support that 48,5°C. The main problem is that the organization operating the station does not show any interest for records etcetera and is not publishing anything about. However there are the data pages, there are emails of Osservatorio delle Acque executives saying that the station was OK and the temperature is OK. I do not know what to say. These are the documented things. The statements that appeared in Wikipedia some months ago about a failed recognition by WMO because of noncompliance with WMO standards were lies (the editor was never able to present references for these statements he had invented), deliberate misinformation that was disseminated in order to discredit Catenanuova's +48,5°C.
 

Amending

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This table shows very interesting details.
Nea Filadelfia has not a lot of city upstream. So when slope breeze comes down after sunset, its UHI affection is limited (just a couple of degrees C, according to different studies, Kassomenos & Katsoulis seem to indicate about +1,5°C yearly average night-time UHI. Unfortunately they do not provide seasonal details, and then we do not know about the summer, when UHI gets really powerful in Athens).
Instead during the day the sea breeze impels the UHI overheated air of the city inside Nea Filadelfia park and produces strong tmax.
At the bottom of the table, we see instead Helliniko (automated). During the day the sea breeze come from the sea and so there is not much city to overheat it. But during night when breezes direction reverse, the land breeze comes from the city, it is overheated by the UHI, and so Helliniko records spectacularly high tmins.

Yeah, the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of Athens' UHI.

Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:
 

belem

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Well, if people just look precisely a year ago we can see that various studies have clearly identified a strong heat isle over Athens. These have been detailed studies, showing how the heat isle effect somtimes breaks up etc. I think you can see whn someone is fanatic as Mesogeiakos and seems to lend some personal status from it, it is understandable that he will refute these things also refutes other European hotspots in order to keep Athens where it needs to be for him: at the top for average temperature during the summer.

On the topic of the heat wave in 2003: note that the daytime maximum temperature in Amareleja was even higher than in Cordoba. They reached a staggering 43,4 C over that period (if I remember correctly). Only Cordoba and Amareleja got 17 consecutive days above 40,0 C.

Portuguese inland is on average not as warm as parts of the Guadalquivir region or Greece. The nighttime temperatures are way lower (probably because of very dry cicrumstances and may be some soil inlfuences ad well, I a m not sure).

I have looked at Moura station (Herdade dos Lamierões) and contacted the meteorologist of that station (Jorge Maia) and he confirms this is complying to all WMO norms, also when it comes to distances to obstacles. This station in summer (as far as I could check) has daytime maxima of 36-37 C in the last years and is somewhat warmer than Sevilla during the day and somewhat cooler the warmest stations in the Guadalquivir region I could find (Ecija and Montoro). But we are talking about 0,5 C or so.

I have the data somewhere, but I am not getting in this debate again.

From all I know, the warmest region during daytime are parts of he Guadiana and Guadalquivir region. on average it is still the Guadalquivir and at night it is of course the eastern mediterranean seaside. That is how I see it. In total, the Guadalquivir region is the warmest part of the Europe in summer.

Hi JS

Herdade dos Lameirões, is not placed on the Guadiana valley but more in the plains of Guadiana basin, so to compare it with Sevilla, that´s placed in the Guadalquivir valley can be a bit weird in my opinion. In front of Alcoutim ( not Martim Longo...), we got 18,8ºc of annual average, during a 25 years period. This is the closest to the Guadiana valley climatology that I got. And this was just in a random place, in fact there are places that have conditions to reach even higher temperatures, at least, during the summer.
Also the temperatures at night are lower in Lameirões than it is in the Guadiana valley, so of course that would be lower than in Guadalquivir.
And I persist to not forget about the hot spots in the East part of Tagus valley as well as in the Douro valley. These places can well have higher minima than many places in the Guadiana basin and good maxima during the day.
Did you had a look on the summer daily maxima averages that it were measured in the Caceres region, close to the Portuguese border? And this is was measured in the plains, not in the valley.
It´s so high that I wonder , about the veracity of this data...
If you want to continue the debate, I would say to use this thread:

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/local-mais-quente-de-portugal-50-c-possivel-1425-29.html
 

J.S.

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Well may be if there are so many "if's", "perhaps'", "may be's" etc it is better not to cite any record as certain...

The Italian Weatherservice seems to be quite dreadfull. My sister lives in Varese and I was there recently (and will be there many times more, MIlano also) commented on the lacklustre performance. Not sure but it is a bit sad.

Italia is btw very similar to Portugal I feel. People, way of living...felt right at home. Too bad the weather seems to be of the humid warm kind unlike Portugal...That was a big bummer! But I liked it very very much! Nice kind people and Italian is very easy to understand...had no problem talking with the people and I understood not to talk Portuguese with everything said within the mouth so no Spanish or Italian can understand. I spoke more staccato and Italian whenever I knew the word and everyhting went just fine. Only the food I ordered, the cloths I bought and the roads I was directed too were completely wrong, but other than that...:thumbsup: ;)

Regards!


Italy has not (and has never had) a met office. We are 3rd world country in the political organization of meteorology.
When it was decided to create the WMO, the panorama was
1) lots of hydro-meteo stations, that were (most of them) intended for urban monitoring and hydrological purposes.
2) a few weather stations in airports, operated by military air forces (Aeronautica Militare, A.M.).
At that time the Government decided to join WMO and to assign to AM the task of representing Italy inside it. In my opinion this depends mainly on the fact that mils were embedded in networks of international relations, plus they had some experience of forecasting, plus perhaps some of them also spoke English. :D

AM operates its small group of stations and some of the stations they use are not operated by them but by a company for the organization of civil aviation, named ENAV (total AM+ENAV about 110-120 stations), most in airports. AM handles and list only its own stations and the ENAV ones, that are the only Italian stations having a WMO Id (there is also a WMO station non-AM/non-ENAV, it is Rome-Collegio Romano, operated by UCEA, the typical old observatory without practical interest because of UHI affection and bad and unrepresentative location -urban station in the top of a tower- but antique and prestigious because of its history)
Next to AM, most if not all regions have developed their own network of weather stations and local forecasting service, with appreciable problems of standardization between regions. Most of the stations are excellent automated ones with full instrumentation complying WMO standards and installed and maintained according to WMO guidelines, but some are not and sometimes it is difficult to evaluate the reported values because when one emails to ask, the answer is not 100% sure.
In my opinion, most temperature values of Italian stations non-AM/non-ENAV are reliable given they were measured after 1991-1992, when most of meteo-wreckage manned stations with Stevenson shelter were swept away and replaced with WMO compliant suburban-rural automated stations with multiplates shelters. AM/ENAV stations are most of the times still manned with Stevenson shelter, so I am very prudent with them. It is former Soviet Union Republics-rank technology.

About Catenanuova, I am prudent about its +48,5. Some believe it 100% but I am more prudent about. At that time several other stations hit >=47°C and this seems to support that 48,5°C. The main problem is that the organization operating the station does not show any interest for records etcetera and is not publishing anything about. However there are the data pages, there are emails of Osservatorio delle Acque executives saying that the station was OK and the temperature is OK. I do not know what to say. These are the documented things. The statements that appeared in Wikipedia some months ago about a failed recognition by WMO because of noncompliance with WMO standards were lies (the editor was never able to present references for these statements he had invented), deliberate misinformation that was disseminated in order to discredit Catenanuova's +48,5°C.
 

J.S.

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Hi JS

Herdade dos Lameirões, is not placed on the Guadiana valley but more in the plains of Guadiana basin, so to compare it with Sevilla, that´s placed in the Guadalquivir valley can be a bit weird in my opinion. In front of Alcoutim ( not Martim Longo...), we got 18,8ºc of annual average, during a 25 years period. This is the closest to the Guadiana valley climatology that I got. And this was just in a random place, in fact there are places that have conditions to reach even higher temperatures, at least, during the summer.
Also the temperatures at night are lower in Lameirões than it is in the Guadiana valley, so of course that would be lower than in Guadalquivir.
And I persist to not forget about the hot spots in the East part of Tagus valley as well as in the Douro valley. These places can well have higher minima than many places in the Guadiana basin and good maxima during the day.
Did you had a look on the summer daily maxima averages that it were measured in the Caceres region, close to the Portuguese border? And this is was measured in the plains, not in the valley.
It´s so high that I wonder , about the veracity of this data...
If you want to continue the debate, I would say to use this thread:

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/local-mais-quente-de-portugal-50-c-possivel-1425-29.html

Well we have been over this many times. Alcoutim is, like Sevilla, frequently influenced by seabreezes. Therefor they are not as warm as more inland regions despite lower elevations. Herdade dos Lameirões has in fact data. Ancient measurements of Moura show similar temperatures (at 90 m altitude BTW). We have no measurements of other places so that is simply guessing. Caceres seems to have nice inland rivers that are at 200-250 m but I am aware of an Atlas that calculates data. I am aware of measurements that are clearly faulty of some station in Extremadura. Simply looking at some averages highs and wintertemperatures indicates time and time again the station are prone to insolation. Therefor I discount these stations on the basis of logic.

What we do know for sure is that Herdade dos Lameirões is a bit warmer at day than Sevilla in summer and a bit cooler than the hottest places in the Guadalquivir region (at day). Other things? A big guessing game.

I have also looked up as many stations as possible in Spain and Portugal (pictures) and the maintenance is awful. really: if you want to measure correctly make sure you do so. And not like in Sevilla where the weatherstation is 5 m in front of a building and next to a parking lot. Or in Portugal, where in Alvega for instance the grass has not been cut for 10 years....I mean: science has shown you introduce huge errors most of all in record like situations....
 

J.S.

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I think Amending could talk a lot about Catenanuova. I'll wait for his answer.

In Seville area there are 3 official meteorological stations of AEMET: San Pablo Airport, Tablada and CMT. Difference between them is not so big.
For instance, June 2011, average mininum temperature

CMT 19.7ºC
San Pablo 19.42ºC
Tablada 18.68ºC

http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-...d_min-DESC&label=temperaturas&Filtrar=Filtrar


These are all at aiports in or near the city. I know of quite some airports having higher temperatures than other stations nearby.

I have compared in the last summer with several agrometeorological stations as I said before and these were low lying pcitures of them showed them to be in the open and well they were a lot cooler. However: during the day this difference was much smaller, partly because most of the stations were NE of Sevilla and a bit further away from the sea (10 km or so, but still)...

Sevilla is not in a position to be as warm as it seems because its proximity to the sea compared and the open countryside that does not block at thing.
If you look at station just south of the city it is amazing how much cooler it gets. Average daytime temperatures are 32 or 33 C instead 35-36. While out in the open, north of the city it does not get any warmer than 35 C or so.
That is what I remember, can look it up...Sevilla stations are anomalous and I seriously doubt they are measuring the climate, they measure it but with a city or other local influence in my view.
 

Vince

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Last year I start thinking myself that perhaps not only the discussion of 50ºC in Europe maybe is an absurd as I think that maybe a series of "official" records in the range of > 45 in Europe to date are of little value because they were almost all obtained under questionable circumstances. Today, with everything I know I even suspect about our official value ​​of Amareleja in 2003. By the way, my suspicion comes from things I have read and learn from J.S in the last years, a respectable member on my trusted users list.
Seriously measuring temperatures is a thing more difficult than it looks at first glance and I think that it would be far more interesting for everyone here to have a critical and independent mind on this subjects, certainly better than these endless "flame wars" discussions about what is hotter.
 

mesogeiakos

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Oh yiah Vince,its not a task for the faint hearted.

Leaving aside the cyclic discussion of the narrative/thesis of Athens being world champion in oddities,here are the today data from HNMS.

Also let me note that the overgeneralization of a general quote on Elefsina says nothing on the actual dynamics of any perceived uhi and what not as there is no such study specifically for Elefsina airport station.Obviously Elefsina's dynamic is huge when the foehn effect is in full swing.We have witnessed this time and time again.I should keep on stressing that it is the geomorphology of the area in combination to numerous natural factors that create this explosive conditions for an area next to the sea!

Now here are the data for the 19th and guess what,even stranger stuff occuring.I mean Amending will have to change his narrative time and time again to get Attica ;);)

Nea Filadelfeia recorded again the highest max in Attica from the NEW station with a 39.3 surpassed at a national level yesterday only by Sofades (40.5) and Serres (40.2)

And lastly spare me on the hints of the invented value of 48.7 from Tatoi.I mean get a grip alredy,I remove it one day from wiki and the next it reappears.Get your facts straight Amending and rid us please of this fixation that I am the mother of all evil of Greece's warm climatology
capturefaa.jpg
 

mesogeiakos

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Here also the data on the brief experiment we are undertaking in terms of comparative climatology between the data from Attica and Andalusia

The data in the UK forum start from the 1st of June and data collection will be finishing on the 31st of August.At the bottom we see compelling data for July only means in favor of Attica and according to the models the situation is not improving much in Greece apart from a shortlived temp drop on Thursday and Friday


53488082.jpg
 

mesogeiakos

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About Catenanuova, I am prudent about its +48,5. Some believe it 100% but I am more prudent about. At that time several other stations hit >=47°C and this seems to support that 48,5°C. The main problem is that the organization operating the station does not show any interest for records etcetera and is not publishing anything about. However there are the data pages, there are emails of Osservatorio delle Acque executives saying that the station was OK and the temperature is OK. I do not know what to say. These are the documented things. The statements that appeared in Wikipedia some months ago about a failed recognition by WMO because of noncompliance with WMO standards were lies (the editor was never able to present references for these statements he had invented), deliberate misinformation that was disseminated in order to discredit Catenanuova's +48,5°C.

In case your ''editor'' reference refers to me (which it does but hey) I have given the name of the AM officer who got back to me.The officer has not contested it and please deal your internal Italian issues with them and not me.

It is obvious that when the official European record that currently holds for Athens was found in a position to compete with non official values of unknown stations to AM then I would act swiftly.There is little chance that I would not react and I will do it again if circumstances arise,you can count on this.

Good thing is that the answer came back from AM and now we have a clear understanding of why we are talking about a non valid and non official record within Italian territory much less in the international arena.
 

J.S.

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Last year I start thinking myself that perhaps not only the discussion of 50ºC in Europe maybe is an absurd as I think that maybe a series of "official" records in the range of > 45 in Europe to date are of little value because they were almost all obtained under questionable circumstances. Today, with everything I know I even suspect about our official value ​​of Amareleja in 2003. By the way, my suspicion comes from things I have read and learn from J.S in the last years, a respectable member on my trusted users list.
Seriously measuring temperatures is a thing more difficult than it looks at first glance and I think that it would be far more interesting for everyone here to have a critical and independent mind on this subjects, certainly better than these endless "flame wars" discussions about what is hotter.

Amareleja: me too. Look at the site: it is surrounded by pine trees. The radiationscreen (well, they have two) is in the shade of those trees at 18 h in the spring (when the picture was taken by a member here). It is absurd.
The only thing that keeps me from totally discarding this station is the fact that nearby Heradade dos Lameirões station (20 km to the south, same altitude) is in fact showing identical values and with that station I am 100% sure it measures correctly. I have said more than once why it is. So in the averages we do not see large differences between Amareleja and H dos L. But this does not mean that extrema are therefor correct or not influenced as extrema are rare and the situations are rare. Suffice to say that a stable column of air warms up and cools down rapidly and trees are a perfect way to get a localised stable column of air...

I believe money is a problem for good maintenance of the stations throughout Southern Europe but having connections with these people, also in doing business with them and having worked with them, my sister living in Italy etc I know the attitude is a problem also. It all boils down to doing things like you were told, like we ageed upon and keeping promises. In NL, DK, Germany and Sweden you are to keep your promises and appointments. You do not change them unilateraly (If you say: I'll be there at 13.00h you better be there). Another pint is that it does not matter as mcuh if you are a CEO or a coworker. The CEO of the 3000 people company I work with did not treat my email right which got me in a bit of trouble. I went to his office, told him to come to my office after he was finished with his talk. He came to my desk, heard my complaint about his conduct. Agreed, apologised and promised me to set things straight (and he did). So we keep eachother sharp and do things like we promised. Whether it is our conduct, the way we treat emails or how many times per year we mow the grass at a weatherstation. Co wokrer, mamanger or CEO...it matters everstill, but far less than in other places. Note that this is a generalisation but you get what I am saying.

I have asked many times before if someone could help me to setup some stations with dataloggers in order to get a good indication of the heat in Portugal, given the lack of weatherstations in interesting places. Again: I am willing to do this but I need your help!
 
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