Ilha de calor urbano

[mesogeiakos]

Is there any study, preferably with models (windmodelling may be nice) for the athens basin? Elefsina is quoted as suburban in the study.
I already showed you a graph about how fast the temperatures rises with just a few buildings and 30000 people was more then enough. You discredited that one as it was an average....Yes, what do you want. One city of 30000 people as an indication or hundreds and average it??

Here is a part of the Spencer study: "A population density of only 100 persons per sq. km exhibits average warming of about 0.8 deg. C compared to a nearby unpopulated temperature monitoring location."

30000 people on 2 km2 , which is the size of Megara is 15000 people per km2. In fact, this is already of the map of Spencer...but it will be near 2 K temperature rise. (1000 is 1,6K) or so. But in all fairness: Megara is not located in the city but 1 km away and only is affected by a NW wind. It is more that there are buildings next to it in virtually all directions, bar NE.
The airstrip itself acts as city like environment as well, certainly if the station is located right next to it.

I never got a lecture by you about the Athens basin, other than you constantly saying how exceptional it is.
WMO: can you show me one area of the Athens observatory that will comply to WMO guidelines? One place, with not a single tree or building within a 200 m radius let alone 400? Saying it is not WMO does not discredit a station just like that nor does WMO stations prove they are. I showed you Arcen station of the KNMI, surrounded by large trees 270 degrees around the station within 20-30 m! Oke then, because it is WMO? That is nonsense. Thiseio: any place there which comes close to WMO norms?

In short: in case of doubts we must know where the sensorscreen is located, even which screen is used (stevenson or radiation shield?) etcetc.

What is A Spencer study?Provide to us the link the name etc.But most importantly relate this to Athens basin exceptional climate as there is already academic debate on this.Can you tell extract this and apply it academically to the case of Athens?

Oh and btw we have been through this.You have failed to provide me the exact WMO rules from the updated version.Where are the OFFICIAL WMO standards?Give me the verse and you ll have it at at a split of sec.

Apart from you arbitrary opinions on whether on not the national authorities of Greece apply WMO criteria,you should already know that all the Athens basin stations have WMO id's regardless of what you think or believe.Shall I start giving you the id's one by one?

 

[mesogeiakos]

Please do so, I haven't read it. And I want to know how it is affected, why it excerts this effect. With some calculations, some models and not some guesses. If that paper is academic, it is pretty laughable to me. It comes with no explanation other than the this geomorphology is selfexplicatory. I want to see it quantified, not guessed. And the trend story in that study is even worse. And that in a country with such a history on science, thinking....but okey.

Thank you for the good words on my country.Greece does not really need ''proteges'' though.

Now we go to the point of discrediting an academic publication because ''it is laughable to me''. In this case I take it you are a PhD holder in Meteorology who can easily scrutinise the Observatory team right?

Btw it is the introduction of 1985 paper that I have posted maybe more than 3 times and just because ''you think'' it is laughable this makes a valid argument.Spare me

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Then provide to us the exact location of the sea temps measurements.Do I need to remind you the NTUA paper on the warm waters of Elefsina as the warmest in the Argosaronic gulf?
And again how exacltly are you taking into account the extreme geomorphology of the Athens basin?Should I start copy pasting again the extract of what an academic paper say's about the difficulty of measuring the Athens UHI?

You seem to on purpose avoid ackowledging the extreme geomoprhology of the Athens basin even though you have been academically refuted.
Apart from bs unofficial sites like tutiempo ,martinez, weatherithinkitisok online etc and arbitrary personal opinions do you have a real academic refutation on the exact UHI of the particular stations?

Well, they need to be pretty warm. Alanya has 30 C and has a tmin of 25,9 C. That is still considerably lower than Elefsis.
Same is true for Larnaca (cyp): 30 C and 25.6 C tmin. Paphos (cyp) 24,4 and water 30 C...Tel Aviv: 25,9 watertemp 30 C. To have the same range, the seawater has to be at 31-32 C to have that minimumtemperature. And the sea near Megara aswell. This is 4 C higher than almost any other part of Greece.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Well, they need to be pretty warm. Alanya has 30 C and has a tmin of 25,9 C. That is still considerably lower than Elefsis.
Same is true for Larnaca (cyp): 30 C and 25.6 C tmin. Paphos (cyp) 24,4 and water 30 C...Tel Aviv: 25,9 watertemp 30 C. To have the same range, the seawater has to be at 31-32 C to have that minimumtemperature. And the sea near Megara aswell. This is 4 C higher than almost any other part of Greece.

Yes but where do the temps come from?I gave you an academic extract that discusses the Elefsina warm waters...and you are giving me wetteronline?

 

[Dan]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Ok one more question...do you know what is the highest ever recorded temprerature in Portugal in the winter?

December,January and February?

29,0ºC
Porto/S. do Pilar
28 de Fevereiro 1960

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Thank you for the good words on my country.Greece does not really need ''proteges'' though.

Now we go to the point of discrediting an academic publication because ''it is laughable to me''. In this case I take it you are a PhD holder in Meteorology who can easily scrutinise the Observatory team right?

Are suggesting that you need to be have a degreet to discuss something or discredit something? Because you don't. If you want to submit a paper to Science or Nature, you will be peerreviewed and it wil be accepted or rejected and not because you have a PhD.

The paper lacks any explanation on what the magnitude of these circumstances are. And there is no need to have a PhD to see that.

Was this paper peerreviewed and published in a peerreviewed paper? If not, it is no better than any other paper you and I can write. Becuase the thesis is not tested. I did the reviewing. The fact is in science, you need to prove what you say and in this paper they did not prove anything. It might as well have been a paper by a student, not someone who already has a PhD.

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Yes but where do the temps come from?I gave you an academic extract that discusses the Elefsina warm waters...and you are giving me wetteronline?

I do and I did not see any paper on the current watertempeature in the Elefsina bay. Megara is not in that bay, also the same temperature as the enclosed Elefsina bay?
But I see you have an academic paper on the current temperatures there. I would like to read it. And Megara please and Athens: these three share similar nighttime temperatures.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

I do and I did not see any paper on the current watertempeature in the Elefsina bay. Megara is not in that bay, also the same temperature as the enclosed Elefsina bay?
But I see you have an academic paper on the current temperatures there. I would like to read it. And Megara please and Athens: these three share similar nighttime temperatures.

Well pity you havent bsc I have posted from day one.Here is the link where I discuss it and translate it in english


http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38292&start=1

Now can you give as an academic refutation on the Elefsina water's apart from b rated sites?

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Are suggesting that you need to be have a degreet to discuss something or discredit something? Because you don't. If you want to submit a paper to Science or Nature, you will be peerreviewed and it wil be accepted or rejected and not because you have a PhD.

The paper lacks any explanation on what the magnitude of these circumstances are. And there is no need to have a PhD to see that.

Was this paper peerreviewed and published in a peerreviewed paper? If not, it is no better than any other paper you and I can write. Becuase the thesis is not tested. I did the reviewing. The fact is in science, you need to prove what you say and in this paper they did not prove anything. It might as well have been a paper by a student, not someone who already has a PhD.

Actually what I am saying is that in order to be able to refute academically this paper you need to have a publication on Athens.Can we see yours?

You seem to be able to enlighen us all even in Greece on how an area by the sea is so warm in Athens.Pity we have been trying so long to pinpoint the reasons.

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Actually what I am saying is that in order to be able to refute academically this paper you need to have a publication on Athens.Can we see yours?

You seem to be able to enlighen us all even in Greece on how an area by the sea is so warm in Athens.Pity we have been trying so long to pinpoint the reasons.

Well, since you are asking for it. Here it is. 2005. I'd say it is more recent and if we look at the quotes, this paper is not on its own...

http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive%5Cpalenc%5C2005%5CStathopoulou.pdf

The daytime (which is less than the nightime UHI) according this more modern study in the Athens area in the warm season is between 0,4 (urban, densily build), 2,9 (mixed urban-suburban) and 3,7 (suburban) compared to rural. To be clear: 50% of the Athens area is in the mixed or suburban category judging from the map enclosed in it.
Where is the negative heatisle? Daytime we are talking about here. At night, the difference is known to be bigger...

Here is a part of this study, refering to a 2004 and 2001 study:

"For the region of Greece, a recent study using thermal remote sensing data of medium spatial resolution showed that the surface UHI intensity
at night can reach up to 8oC for the cities of Thessaloniki and Heraklion and up to 7oC for the cities of Patra and Volos (Stathopoulouet al., 2004). From another study using air temperature measurements (Santamouris et al.,
2001), it was found that during the summer period, daytime UHI intensity of Athens is close to 10oC for the central Athens area, whereas the night-time UHI intensity can rise up to 5oC. This study presents a methodology for estimating the surface UHI intensity of urban areas by using satellite images in combination with land cover information provided by the Corine
land cover database for Greece. The method is applied to the major cities of Greece: Athens, Thessaloniki, Volos, Patra and Heraklion in order
to study their thermal environment."


So how about that...no heat isle in Athens hmmm....

O yeah "Received 4 October 2005; revised 16 June 2006; accepted 21 June 2006." It is peerreviewed.

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Here is another one, form an abstract:

"Land Surface Temperature (LST) is a significant parameter for identifying micro-climatic changes, their spatial distribution and intensities in relation to the urban environment. In this study, LST is estimated using thermal infrared data as acquired by the Advanced Very High Resolution Radiometer (AVHRR) instrument onboard the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) satellite and by using a split window algorithm that is adjusted to account for the region of Greece. For the assignment of the surface emissivity, a new methodology based on the Coordination of Information on the Environment (CORINE) Land Cover database for Greece is used. The algorithm is applied to a night-time series of NOAA/AVHRR images of Greece in order to produce surface temperature maps of an enhanced spatial resolution of 250 m for the cities of Thessaloniki, Patra, Volos and Iraklion, which are the most significant harbour cities of Greece. Results indicate the presence of urban heat islands (UHIs) in each case study, with highest temperatures detected along the coastal zone of the harbour cities resulting from denser urban fabric and road network as well as intense human activity. "

Coastal zone....now where is Elefsina, Megara, Athens etc located? In the coastal zone. And how do they look: right: roads, buildings etc. Mind you that some of those cities have less than 100000 inhabitants.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Well, since you are asking for it. Here it is. 2005. I'd say it is more recent and if we look at the quotes, this paper is not on its own...

http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive%5Cpalenc%5C2005%5CStathopoulou.pdf

The daytime (which is less than the nightime UHI) according this more modern study in the Athens area in the warm season is between 0,4 (urban, densily build), 2,9 (mixed urban-suburban) and 3,7 (suburban) compared to rural. To be clear: 50% of the Athens area is in the mixed or suburban category judging from the map enclosed in it.
Where is the negative heatisle? Daytime we are talking about here. At night, the difference is known to be bigger...

Here is a part of this study, refering to a 2004 and 2001 study:

"For the region of Greece, a recent study using thermal remote sensing data of medium spatial resolution showed that the surface UHI intensity
at night can reach up to 8oC for the cities of Thessaloniki and Heraklion and up to 7oC for the cities of Patra and Volos (Stathopoulouet al., 2004). From another study using air temperature measurements (Santamouris et al.,
2001), it was found that during the summer period, daytime UHI intensity of Athens is close to 10oC for the central Athens area, whereas the night-time UHI intensity can rise up to 5oC. This study presents a methodology for estimating the surface UHI intensity of urban areas by using satellite images in combination with land cover information provided by the Corine
land cover database for Greece. The method is applied to the major cities of Greece: Athens, Thessaloniki, Volos, Patra and Heraklion in order
to study their thermal environment."


So how about that...no heat isle in Athens hmmm....

O yeah "Received 4 October 2005; revised 16 June 2006; accepted 21 June 2006." It is peerreviewed.

Oh really??And where are the exact stations?In question?Even the 1985 paper discusses 2-3min changes and you have been refuted once with a 2007 on the negative UHI and now once more



Here you go.It clearly states that the increase can not be established that it is due to other factors or cyclic change
http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive\Milos2006\03_Assimakopoulos_01_4P.pdf

Livada 2006.Oh dont forget the 2007 paper on the negative one

Now how do this relate to the Elefsina airport station exactly?

So for the Observatory station per se...we can not establish that it is on a cyclic change of temp trends etc...Now care to give us something on Elefsina per se?

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Here is another one, form an abstract:

"Land Surface Temperature (LST) is a significant parameter for identifying micro-climatic changes, their spatial distribution and intensities in relation to the urban environment. In this study, LST is estimated using thermal infrared data as acquired by the Advanced Very High Resolution Radiometer (AVHRR) instrument onboard the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) satellite and by using a split window algorithm that is adjusted to account for the region of Greece. For the assignment of the surface emissivity, a new methodology based on the Coordination of Information on the Environment (CORINE) Land Cover database for Greece is used. The algorithm is applied to a night-time series of NOAA/AVHRR images of Greece in order to produce surface temperature maps of an enhanced spatial resolution of 250 m for the cities of Thessaloniki, Patra, Volos and Iraklion, which are the most significant harbour cities of Greece. Results indicate the presence of urban heat islands (UHIs) in each case study, with highest temperatures detected along the coastal zone of the harbour cities resulting from denser urban fabric and road network as well as intense human activity. "

Coastal zone....now where is Elefsina, Megara, Athens etc located? In the coastal zone. And how do they look: right: roads, buildings etc. Mind you that some of those cities have less than 100000 inhabitants.

Again shall I remind the study on Elefsina per se?Where is Elefsina bay on this one?

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Again shall I remind the study on Elefsina per se?Where is Elefsina bay on this one?

Elfsina is near the coastm in an suburban area, also according to your 1985 study I guess. So...

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Again shall I remind the study on Elefsina per se?Where is Elefsina bay on this one?

Please do, And not in Greek. That is what I got last time from you.