Ilha de calor urbano

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Elfsina is near the coastm in an suburban area, also according to your 1985 study I guess. So...

Well i translated it in the UK forum pertaining Elefsina area per se .I cant do anything it is in Greek.Greek is an international and EU language easily variafiable

Can you give me us something on Elefsina area per se?

 

[J.S.]

Oh really??And where are the exact stations?In question?Even the 1985 paper discusses 2-3min changes and you have been refuted once with a 2007 on the negative UHI and now once more



Here you go.It clearly states that the increase can not be established that it is due to other factors or cyclic change
http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive\Milos2006\03_Assimakopoulos_01_4P.pdf

Livada 2006.Oh dont forget the 2007 paper on the negative one

Now how do this relate to the Elefsina airport station exactly?

So for the Observatory station per se...we can not establish that it is on a cyclic change of temp trends etc...Now care to give us something on Elefsina per se?

2007 study: 1 day in october. October is not the best month. Compare that to the whole wamr season in the other study. BEsides. I remember this study citing nighttime minima temperatures of 3,5 to 6,5 C above rural! Anyway: 1 day in october...

And this remakr has got to do with a rising number of days at Athens observatory. What has this got to do with a comparison, a heatisle effect or anything. Nothing. The temp can rise (and does rise) because of global warming.

The study I showed you is clear. The urban heatisle effect according to this study is 0,4 minimally and 3,7 maximally at day. And it is peerreviewed. And it deals with the whole season. Is this new to you, or are youjust citing what suits you? You seem an expert on the Athens UHI, so I wonder...

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

2007 study: 1 day in october. October is not the best month. Compare that to the whole wamr season in the other study. BEsides. I remember this study citing nighttime minima temperatures of 3,5 to 6,5 C above rural! Anyway: 1 day in october...

And this remakr has got to do with a rising number of days at Athens observatory. What has this got to do with a comparison, a heatisle effect or anything. Nothing. The temp can rise (and does rise) because of global warming.

The study I showed you is clear. The urban heatisle effect according to this study is 0,4 minimally and 3,7 maximally at day. And it is peerreviewed. And it deals with the whole season. Is this new to you, or are youjust citing what suits you? You seem an expert on the Athens UHI, so I wonder...

Wait the study you mention has a thermic depiction of Athens as well.I remember you did not accept thermic depictions etc.

Now the study I showed you is even clearer IT IS ON THE OBSERVATORY STATION for the last 28 years discussing ALL the possible effects of temp increase.The conclution is that they can not establish a valid link with anything...

Where are the exact data of the Observatory station on its UHI exact values?We have two studies on the observatory station per se...where is yours??

Now Elefsina as well please?

 

[J.S.]

Wait the study you mention has a thermic depiction of Athens as well.I remember you did not accept thermic depictions etc.

Now the study I showed you is even clearer IT IS ON THE OBSERVATORY STATION for the last 28 years discussing ALL the possible effects of temp increase.The conclution is that they can not establish a valid link with anything...

Where are the exact data of the Observatory station on its UHI exact values?We have two studies on the observatory station per se...where is yours??

Now Elefsina as well please?

Can you make the distinction between UHI and grenhouse warming? I begin to wonder. Because a greenhouse warming trend will occur everywhere in your region at the same rate. So you can still and continuously study the UHI within the region comparing the stations. The longterm rising trend in all of them is useless it is the deltaT between them. Therefor, only looking at the Observatory does the oppoiste, there is no compairson so on its own little can be said about the UHI. It is exactly my problem with that 1984 study...



Here is another one, Katsoulis et al. in "Meteorology and Atmospheric Physics". I think they have some sort of PhD or I hope so...

"Abstract
This paper examines the characteristics of the morning Urban Heat Island (UHI) in Athens basin, Greece. The study is performed by using and analyzing mesoscale and synoptic data covering the period 1990–2001. The UHI was estimated using the 0600 Local Time (LT) minimum temperature differences between rural and urban areas of the city. The analysis results in 7 UHI classes. A strong UHI was found for the 1/3 of days. The specific meteorological characteristics (surface and upper air, cooling rate) of each UHI class were revealed and examined. The spatial and temporal characteristics of the UHI were also identified.
The UHI is largest on nights with clear skies and low relative humidity. In all seasons the UHI switches on rapidly in afternoon. During spring and summer, sea breeze commonly reduces and delays the UHI. Cases documenting the sensitivity and rapidity of changes of the UHI to changes in classes (cloud cover, wind) are also presented. The cooling rate is higher in the urban area under negative and lower under positive UHI conditions.
Mesoscale and macroscale phenomena were examined during the different UHI classes through a weather type scheme. It was emerged that high UHI classes are associated with anticyclonic conditions or advection in the lower troposphere, while low UHI classes are associated with strong northeasterly winds. Anticyclonic conditions which frequently occur in spring and early summer, reduce or reverse the UHI to Urban Cooling Island."

Clear heatisle effect. In all seasons, sometimes cancelled by prevailing winds or reduced by the seabreeze.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Can you make the distinction between UHI and grenhouse warming? I begin to wonder. Because a greenhouse warming trend will occur everywhere in your region at the same rate. So you can still and continuously study the UHI within the region comparing the stations. The longterm rising trend in all of them is useless it is the deltaT between them. Therefor, only looking at the Observatory does the oppoiste, there is no compairson so on its own little can be said about the UHI. It is exactly my problem with that 1984 study...



Here is another one, Katsoulis et al. in "Meteorology and Atmospheric Physics". I think they have some sort of PhD or I hope so...

"Abstract
This paper examines the characteristics of the morning Urban Heat Island (UHI) in Athens basin, Greece. The study is performed by using and analyzing mesoscale and synoptic data covering the period 1990–2001. The UHI was estimated using the 0600 Local Time (LT) minimum temperature differences between rural and urban areas of the city. The analysis results in 7 UHI classes. A strong UHI was found for the 1/3 of days. The specific meteorological characteristics (surface and upper air, cooling rate) of each UHI class were revealed and examined. The spatial and temporal characteristics of the UHI were also identified.
The UHI is largest on nights with clear skies and low relative humidity. In all seasons the UHI switches on rapidly in afternoon. During spring and summer, sea breeze commonly reduces and delays the UHI. Cases documenting the sensitivity and rapidity of changes of the UHI to changes in classes (cloud cover, wind) are also presented. The cooling rate is higher in the urban area under negative and lower under positive UHI conditions.
Mesoscale and macroscale phenomena were examined during the different UHI classes through a weather type scheme. It was emerged that high UHI classes are associated with anticyclonic conditions or advection in the lower troposphere, while low UHI classes are associated with strong northeasterly winds. Anticyclonic conditions which frequently occur in spring and early summer, reduce or reverse the UHI to Urban Cooling Island."

Clear heatisle effect. In all seasons, sometimes cancelled by prevailing winds or reduced by the seabreeze.

Come on dont go in cicles.You have shown this paper in the past.

Now you have a strong 1977-2004 study for the actual Observatory station air temperature data analysis with ALL the possible reasons of temp increase and yet no real connection with UHI,buildings, a/c or CO2 emission , even global warming but only normal cyclic temp trends...

Can you give us a study that states the exact observatory UHI and that is clearly attridutable to UHI and only?

And why dont you give us something on Elefsina at last.You seem the expert here not me!!

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Well here we are. You showed me one study of 1984 and one of 2007. The first one did not know what tot do with a downward trend. They did not think of a comparison with trends in nearby cities. No. Just one station and they came up with some conclusions. Or you did.
2007 study: is one day remote sensed in october. Not the warmest month and based on the angle of the sun, certainly not the month with the best UHI warming possibilities.

You constantly reffered to the first study specifically. And I was so stubborn that I would go against scholars (you know nothing of my background btw).
Even though that study was clear about nighttime UHI nevertheless.

So now I show you a couple of recent studies where theUHI of several cities is calculated in a peerreviewed paper that was accepted! And I show you a second study and a third and they are very clear in all cases. One even tells you how a UHI works and they also note that suburban areas are strongly affected by the heatisle, which should give you an indication of Elefsina which was already suburban in 1982 and looking at the current situation it still looks that way.

But now you come up with a study that has got nothing to do with UHI. The observatory warmed up. Yes. There is not a real difference to be expected with other parts of Athens in the 1977-2001 (or so) period because it has always been a big urban/suburban city during that time. A study of one station is actualy useless to determine the UHI in various parts of a city.

So we can at least say that the situation in Athens is not like you portrayed it at all: the best studies that did the most throrough research and wnet trhough the peerreviewing system says the UHI is clear in Athens. Like I expected.

While there is little to no doubt about the temperatures in the Guadalquivir region, bar Sevilla for the vary same reasons as Athens, there is huge doubt based on good scientific research on the Athens area. Virtually all studies show that the minima are most affected but even daytime, as that study shows the effect is clearly noticable. The study is sophisticated, used models and remote sensing during the whole warm season.

So: you have no doubts?

What is wrong with that study and aren't these people scholars, with a PhD and much more knowledge, tools and computermodels than those people in 1985? Why do you prefer the 1985 study?

But this is what happens with people who are fan of somehting, in this case their warm city: they strongly biased. That is what you can read in almost every post you write on the subject. No matter what: Athens is the warmest. We should not compare max but average temperatures etcetcetc.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Well here we are. You showed me one study of 1984 and one of 2007. The first one did not know what tot do with a downward trend. They did not think of a comparison with trends in nearby cities. No. Just one station and they came up with some conclusions. Or you did.
2007 study: is one day remote sensed in october. Not the warmest month and based on the angle of the sun, certainly not the month with the best UHI warming possibilities.

You constantly reffered to the first study specifically. And I was so stubborn that I would go against scholars (you know nothing of my background btw).
Even though that study was clear about nighttime UHI nevertheless.

So now I show you a couple of recent studies where theUHI of several cities is calculated in a peerreviewed paper that was accepted! And I show you a second study and a third and they are very clear in all cases. One even tells you how a UHI works and they also note that suburban areas are strongly affected by the heatisle, which should give you an indication of Elefsina which was already suburban in 1982 and looking at the current situation it still looks that way.

But now you come up with a study that has got nothing to do with UHI. The observatory warmed up. Yes. There is not a real difference to be expected with other parts of Athens in the 1977-2001 (or so) period because it has always been a big urban/suburban city during that time. A study of one station is actualy useless to determine the UHI in various parts of a city.

So we can at least say that the situation in Athens is not like you portrayed it at all: the best studies that did the most throrough research and wnet trhough the peerreviewing system says the UHI is clear in Athens. Like I expected.

While there is little to no doubt about the temperatures in the Guadalquivir region, bar Sevilla for the vary same reasons as Athens, there is huge doubt based on good scientific research on the Athens area. Virtually all studies show that the minima are most affected but even daytime, as that study shows the effect is clearly noticable. The study is sophisticated, used models and remote sensing during the whole warm season.

So: you have no doubts?

What is wrong with that study and aren't these people scholars, with a PhD and much more knowledge, tools and computermodels than those people in 1985? Why do you prefer the 1985 study?

But this is what happens with people who are fan of somehting, in this case their warm city: they strongly biased. That is what you can read in almost every post you write on the subject. No matter what: Athens is the warmest. We should not compare max but average temperatures etcetcetc.

Very nice long analysis.Impressive but I am not stubborn(well maybe biased slightly since hey I am Athenian born and bread) however I have presented you two studies SPECIFICALLY on the temps of the Observatory.

You were the one to attack the Observatory station and I simply gave you the exact values of the temp increase!For 1985 paper the increase in 0.3 against the whole record.

In the latest one a ''significant increase'' of hours over 30C is observed with no real idea if this is the normal cyclic pattern of temp changes.

If you want to ''attack'' this PARTICULAR station do it with exact figures pertinenent to the particular station ONLY and attributable clearly to UHI.Have you done this?I did not see anything apart from generic studies of god knows where in Athens.Again the Observatory station is on a hill and plus you constantly avoid acknowledging Athens basin extreme geomoprhology!I guess it suits you this way


Most importantly why change direction?I am waiting on something pertaining Elefsina station per se!!Btw remember Elefsina is exactly the same with Tablada and Larissa airports in terms of proximity of building...You know what?Elefsina kicks some serious ass!I am sure you know this already.Now care to explain this as well.Bsc we in Greece are still trying!!

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

You just don't get it. The upward trend for the next 100 years will be greenhouse warmingonly and so is the upward trend starting from 1977 or so.

You seem to think that UHI rises in a linear way...You should have read the studies I handed you earlier on. The rise is extremely steep from, say 100-10000 people and than abates rapidly.

The 0,3 K rise on its own for one observatory that has been influenced by a city surrounding it for more than hundred year quite simply i sno indication for anything on its own. You must relate this rise to other, rural and urban stations. That was not my point, the point is that this site is influenced over the whole period in the 1985 study and that is why their remarks are unsubstantiated They should have related the fall with other stations, they could not have known that SO2 could be one of the components overpowering the greenhouse rising trend. The UHI trend was probably assumed to rise and rise and rise while the city got bigger, but it doesn't work that way.

Larissa: don't know, don't care. Tablada...did you read what I wrote? I have the same problems with that station and have said so all the time. I also concluded that Athens without a heatisle effect woul dbe very warm. Seeing the influence of the effect on the city, somehwere between 0,4 an 3,7 depending on where you are at day in the warm seasonmakes one wonder how big it is at night. At night, the effect is bigger in general. But this also puts the Athens AP station into perspective. As I thought, the difference is not (only) related to the geomorphology of Attica it has indeed a lot to do with a big city and many suburban areas in the Attica region.

You can say that about Sevilla, but you cannot say the same about the Guadalquivir region. You can find loads of rural stations there and they show you the same temperatures as Cordoba. On the side of the Guadiana river it is the same: many rural station and no cities of any size to speak of, bar Badajoz, Elvas and Merida. Talavera airport is 15 km east of the city though..

So we can conclude that there is ample scientific work to strongly doubt Athens and any station in it to measure without a noticable UHI effect. You cannot say the same of the Guadalquivir/Guadiana region.

Elefsis...I repeat, is suburban. Every study I read is clear. Suburban areas are affected by heatisle effects. Elefsis has some exceptional temperatures at times. In part becuase of its situation but as a suburban area it is only logicval to expect a human, urban influence aswell. Just like Sevilla and Larissa (if you say so).

Very nice long analysis.Impressive but I am not stubborn(well maybe biased slightly since hey I am Athenian born and bread) however I have presented you two studies SPECIFICALLY on the temps of the Observatory.

You were the one to attack the Observatory station and I simply gave you the exact values of the temp increase!For 1985 paper the increase in 0.3 against the whole record.

In the latest one a ''significant increase'' of hours over 30C is observed with no real idea if this is the normal cyclic pattern of temp changes.

If you want to ''attack'' this PARTICULAR station do it with exact figures pertinenent to the particular station ONLY and attributable clearly to UHI.Have you done this?I did not see anything apart from generic studies of god knows where in Athens.Again the Observatory station is on a hill and plus you constantly avoid acknowledging Athens basin extreme geomoprhology!I guess it suits you this way


Most importantly why change direction?I am waiting on something pertaining Elefsina station per se!!Btw remember Elefsina is exactly the same with Tablada and Larissa airports in terms of proximity of building...You know what?Elefsina kicks some serious ass!I am sure you know this already.Now care to explain this as well.Bsc we in Greece are still trying!!

 

[belem]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

And that comes from someone who has failed systematically to proove academically how the alleged UHI of the stations in question is apparent.The best J.S has done was a collection of generic studies all over Athens while on the other hand two studies of 1985 and 2007 coming from NOA regarding the Observatory station itself discredit the notion of any UHI affecting the mean in Athens.

The main challenge J.S had to face was to proove to us how Megara is also affected by the alleged UHI of Athens stations 45km to the west seperated by sea and two mountain ranges.Instead we saw him using all kinds of excuses to try and grab onto something,anything that will help him surpass his shock of Attica's extreme summer dynamic

Funny how much awe and fear a peninsula by the sea has cause to heatlovers with its unique dynamic of systematically outperforming even areas in the Red Sea ,let alone any area in Europe....but that is the fun part of it:the extreme effort of heatlovers to discredit Athens,which goes to show how trullly remarkable Attica is!Let's see the levels Attica can reach the next few days?Shall we?We are writing history day by day in Attica and the above UK thread might as well remain a point of reference for years to come!

Interessante será quando fizermos o mesmo que vocês: colocar estações nas zonas mais quentes!
Para o nosso caso, não será muito complicado de colocar algumas em zonas selvagens, em vez de zonas urbanas ou suburbanas.