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Tópico em 'Europa' iniciado por Mesogiakos 3 Dez 2012 às 10:29.
Ok mate again who cares on what you think or perceive that draws the most attention?Do you have any relevant study to proove us quantitatively that the general population or meteorologists are drawn particularly from a specific meteorological parameter ?
Nah...I figured so.So take your random,biased,subjective hypothesis in the comfort of your private surroundings.I for one believe from what I have seen that most people are interested a lot on which is on average the warmest areas in Europe both in the summer and annually.So who's right?I say I am!Now prove me wrong if you can.
Well I care and that is enough for me.
How objective is "beating the crap out of" or where warmth equals "hell"? Or is that more your personal percetpion of a 0,6 K difference.
It seems you are trying to impress people with...a temperature. Seems there are more important matters to by far the most people, even meteorologists it seems.
Ever heared on any weatherprogram "the daytime averages were very high in Athens!" I did not. And that is what people remember. If it isnot important to you, why argue. if you know how things are and the public opinion is irrelevant to you, no need to argue. But it is clear you find it very important. Not succeeding in your goal to impress people with your local temperature, you go to great lengths and use hyperboles. Which in most cases gets you nowhere. You overscream yourself in my view. What do you think? "If I say itlouder, they will believe me or will think it is important!" Not really. It will get ad hominem, because it is the tone that makes the music, as the French say.d
28,0 C is just nothing special. It gets 28,0 C in The Netherlands every summer. I think 15 times or so. 28,0 is a figure that does not impress. 40 C or more is something most Europeans never or rarely experience so to most that is what impresses. yes, also meteorologists. Even if 28,0 C in itself is indeed an extremely high value. It is like the grasminimum (at 10 cm height): the general public does not care even most people over here never mention it. Moreless the same thing (and I cannot scientifically prove that, just my very subjective thought).
Again who gives a shit on what your subjective bullshit likes or dislikes say.The point being is that Athens is by far the warmest area of Europe in the summer and I say that many people are interested in knowing this.
Athens beats the crap out of any area anywhere in the continent on a concrete,steady and well observed manor each and every summer.That is what people care to know and are interested to know as a fact
In your parallel universe of bullshit subjectivity you can cry your heart out all you want.No one will listen.Unless and until you can provide us with a quantitative study that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that ''the public or meteorologists'' are drawn to a specific meteorological parameter then I suggest you take your pathetic whinning in the comfort of your private surrounding.
The fact is that Athens is the European champion in summer heat.You dont like my tone?Well tough I could give a rats arse.I dont give a shit frankly what you like or not.You will get each and every time the response that your crap logic deserves.Now bow to Athens and provide us with the said study or let us make two the occasions on which you failed to provide tangible research evidence on your crap subjectivity issues.You are only making a fool of yourself by being incapable to back up your arguments for the second time.I backed up mine with all the relevant hard data.
You really seem to think that, yes.
And that is your version of objectivity I assume.
Apparantly you do. I have frequented other fora and it seemed to me that not too many bought some of the assertions you made. But that is to be expected on fora. Not much arguiing if we all agreed always, isn't it.
I was being subjective but you did not read that I think. Just my humble opinion (the word "humble" is one I am not going to look up for you).
I think it matters a whole lot to you, hence your constant itteration of the same subject. I already agreed that on average this can well be the case.
Thanks for making it clear again that this is a very personal matter to you, but expect a personal reply. it has got little to do with athens and its heat. That is what you want us to think. Any observer with some sense of psychology knows that Athens and its temperature are an extension of your persona hence the unbalanced, biased wording and allergy to people with some other thoughts that could threaten that image you want others to have of yourself. It would not matter which subject it is to you. Anything can be used to blow yourself up, Athens and its climate are just a tool and getting accurate data on it was and never will be your goal I am convinced. Nothing new but it is a peculair one. Most people take the history of their country as an extension of themselves etc. Climate seems a bit odd to impress some, but on these fora you could stand a chance of course.
Oh so now let me get it straight. Apart from an incapable researcher with little or no sense of how to do or provide basic research you are also an online psychologist.
Apparently you own personal biases and skewed view of the world in some way finds practical application to someone who is vocal about something.I on the other hand believe that your deep seated complexes when faced with strife and strong personalities such as my self give way to surface all your feelings of personal inadequacies.
But it's ok m8 in society you will always have people vocal who will shut you up immediately just for seeing your superficial, uneducated and deeply seated psychological complexes projected on to them.Deal with it.
Tell me something does it hurt so much that you are systematically ridiculed by someone like me when you can't provide basic research to back up your bullshit? Is your online psychological evaluations a way to make you feel better towards a cognitively superior user?Most importantly am I not a better online psychologist that you?lol.
I mean honestly do you believe that I seriously care what you believe others think about me?And from the internet on all places? Should I be impressed by someone who obviously has a difficulty in public speech defending his arguments and instead invokes personal stuff for impression management? Again in the untrained eye this shows the superficiality with which you probably lead your life or structure your relationships.Probably a really boring and fixated person with loads of issues for my liking tbh.
Spare me and cry me a river dude.Who gives a shit if you like my tone. Go give a lecture to ur obviously retarded circle of friends (if you have any that is) and not me.Maybe u ll get some success there.
PS.Now bow to the summer heat of Athens!!It beats the crap out of your beloved Iberia during the summer and it will always do so!!
Your response is inline with what I thought. Your last sentence you put in always and it is clearly trolling, trying to provoke someone and also shows what this all means to you. But that was clear already over the past few years.
Some remarks of you throughout this discussion shows how you dismiss valid problems with the station. I now see that it is in a village. I also see that you think that double checking with some other unknown station means we can be sure it is oke. However, ti s does nothing to add the necessary knowledge on the station site, ubication, surroundings etc.
Here some remarks of yours:
"It's a 2000 people town/village.It cant really be ''urban''.If you can find pics from the NOA site let me know ,I am searching for those too,I had no luck.No worries.The data seem pretty good and accurate if we contrast them with the other stations in South Crete both from HNMS and NOA."
"I think the Davis fan aspirated stations are really good in solving this issue to be honest.They are very accurate in temperature sensitivities provided they are correctly installed .As I said if you compare the daily data between Palaiohora (NOA) and Palaiohora (HNMS) stations they are very compatible albeit the later being slightly warmer.
"Anyways I think we are splitting hair here.It's a big village actually.Not really urban with really remarkable climatological conditions due to it's amazing topography.If you check pictures of the town of Palaiohora you will see how complex terrain ,with mountains ,hills etc it is.It's fascinating!"
"The data I believe are pretty good and accurate."
"Ok then the other station from HNMS,the WMO accredited one has ''solved'' it...and surprise surprise it's even warmer.What can the 10 vehicles that pass every 20 minutes from the centre of Palaiohora can do?And the station is not even in the center. Come on it's a big village.No urban heat island ,not full of vehicles etc"
"doubt it has an impact on the station.Besides the HNMS station is even warmer and it is a WMO station."
Here some points of mine:
1) WMO are guidelines and not standards, which is painfully clear when we look at Portuguese stations for example.
2) Heatisles build up because: lack of vegetation and moist mean all energy can be putin warming up the air (not into evaporation).
Concrete,asphalt etc are good in retaining heath. Much better than soil (sand especially for instance). This heath is reradiated back
into the localatmosphere which means nights are much warmer than the surrounding countryside, most of all if there is some vegetation over there.
4) trees, buidlings etc keep thewind at bay. The air is more stable and there is less mixing of colder air above with warmer air on the ground.
This means that heath can build up much better compared to open terrain. Again, a small village or even a large garden in the open field
is perfectly capable of causing this effect.
Talking about WMO: WMO guidelines explicitly note that there should be no buildings or trees in a 200 m radius. There is a reason for that....
Davis aspirated weatherscreens are PRONE to warming. it is the non artificially screen that is the cooler one under high insolation conditions as compared to Stevensonscreens and actually most other screens.
From the WMO report of 2011, which included among others a passive and an artifical ventilated Davisscreen:
"Other artificially ventilated screens gave disappointing results, with quite warm
temperatures in case of solar radiation. This may be due to their design and/or some
faults in the ventilation during the test (dust and sand reducing the ventilation
efficiency). For example, the ventilated DAVIS gave worst results (warmer
temperatures during day) than the passive DAVIS, which was not expected."
WMO report: INSTRUMENTS AND OBSERVING METHODS
REPORT No. 106/ WMO/TD-No. 1579
So unless other info is available on the station, we can conclude that this station does not come close to WMO guidelines, that a village is prone to warming. That an intercomparison with a Davis centilated screen is at best to be researched further, that an intercomparision is not helpfull if nothing is known about the exact location of a station.
Your dismissal of Spanish stations because of similar faulty ubication seems in stark contrast with your acceptance when it comes to Greek stations. The Athens case, of which we can find detailed reports of a very strong heat isle effect was also met with the same, noncritical approach of yours. Athens, however, seems is mostly seen in (recent) research as a typical example of a large heatisle effect.
The Alcoutim lowland area has about the same average of Seville or even more (by a little), because we had a 25 year old observation data from this place (to think realistically on this), let it be the warmest summer month average or the annual average, and it´s clearly not the warmest zone on the Guadiana valley (for several reasons, that were discussed on this forum and with which the official IM also agrees), so this gives you a lot of room to think.
The ideal would a be several decade observation, but we are still far from that.
Now imagine, to determine this, from a big landlocked area (inland and lowland Douro, Tagus, Murcia, Guadalquivir, Guadiana, etc...).
Honestly I don´t need it, to realize that this subject isn´t really that simple and that further studies are essential.
So if some people think that they already know everything about this, they just simply cannot be trusted.
Total bullshit of the distorting kind.Which once again goes to show that you dont even bother to read what I have said in the past or ur crappy cognitive skills fail you by much First of all I can not find this source.I checked all the online wmo database and I cant find the direct link or pdf file
here is an example of how the reports from wmo are published online
Now a) provide the full working link to double check on you.
b) even if you havent distorted the main passage above (which I can take it almost as granted since you do not give us the FULL text) the study above say nothing about the specific Davis model.
Now u might wanna hire an intern or something who can help you focus to read my posts specifically.I have never ever said that the Davis stations from NOA comply with WMO standards.So what is this bullshit of yours on top of weak impression management ?
What I have said is that the Davis Pro2 fan aspirated stations of NOA are very accurate.So even if I take in face value this copy pasted crap and even if bona fide I accept that you are not hiding,distorting and changing the FULL text of the report this says jack shit on the accuracy of the NOA stations.
Now regarding the bullshit of warming in a village of 2000 simply goes to show that you dont know what to say,have run out of arguments or your are simply a worthless troll.I mean really what kind of warming can you have in a village of 2000 people?lol.
No matter how much you cry as I said we have the WMO station from Palaiohora from HNMS and surprise surprise it is even warmer than the Davis station from NOA. But ur pathetic attempt to somehow bring your personal stuff against me has once again made to ignore this fact.Spare us mate.South Crete is the ULTIMATE player in Europe in annual temps no matter if you copy paste a random piece and no matter how much u are trying to hide from us the full text without providing the direct link.
Finally when Athens is involved.Again who gives a shit on what you think my personal stance on the issue is.The point is that even if Athens has the worlds greatest UHI this does not change anything.Meaning that to date there is NO single WMO station in Europe to manage to beat the WMO Athens station summer means.Even if you put a station at the heart of Seville ,Athens will beat the crap out of Seville despite the UHI in both areas.The central question is not the UHI which is obvious for a central station but the natural dynamic of the area and Athens has the strongest summer dynamic ever since the late 1800's if we check the Observatory station when the area was not nearly as populated as today.
To make a long story short.Your bullshit copy paste doesnt say anything on the specific model of Davis in Palaiohora. Secondly cry us a river about the so called warming of a 2000 population village.Thirdly we have the WMO station in Palaiohora which is even warmer than the NOA Davis station and which u intentionally ignore.Lastly as far as Athens is concerned there is,there was and there will never be a single WMO station in Europe to ever beat it's summer means consistently.Easy peasy lol
Now I dont think I should stress this again but in Greek we say a phrase which is along the lines ''repetition is the mother of knowledge'' so bow both to South Crete for it's annual means and to Athens for its summer means.It will be a good exercise for you!
Finally give us the full TEXT or the direct link to check your credibility on this irrelevant Davis report which has nothing to do with the Palaiohora station.
So a short translation:
1) You think I forged the WMO report.
2) A village of 2000 people can have no heatisle effect.
3) Because the p'hora is an WMO station it therefor is correct and measures correctly.
4) Athens is the warmest place in Europe in summer.
On page 54 the third bullit says exactly what I quoted.
Point 1.4 makes clear how you should measure. The exact guidelines are the Dutch (stringent I think) standard. In the literature you'll find a distance to objects of 4 to 10 times the height of the object. So a 10 m object is at least 40 to 100 m away. Also note the clear epxression about roads, trees etc. it is next to impossible to measure that way in a village. That is not without a reason
3) WMO are guidelines. These are not rules. hence you can measure according to the guidelines and introduce large urban influences.
4) Athens has a strong urban heat isle effect, particularly the western and central (industrialised) zones.
Also search for: Sustainable Urban Future in Southern Europe - What
about the Heat Island Effect?
Interesting for both Athens and Palaiochora is figure 2.3. it shows that the slightest small buildings immediately cause a stepp temperature rise. A park, located between the suburbs or village (low buildings not at the city centre) cools down but not to rural temperatures. Not at all.
Another, very recent study is this one "MONITORING AND FORECASTING OF URBAN HEAT ISLAND PHENOMENON IN TEN EUROPEAN CITIES"".
Again as expected it is noted that southern European cities are much more affected and especially in summer than more northern european ones.
Athens can be the warmest, even without this effect when compared to many places west of it. The sea is warmer and that is a huge influence, the nighttime temperatures are higher because of this (see study). But due to the heatisle which is very prominent there (but also in sevilla for instance) a comparison is difficult to make and non meterological or geographical factors influence the data in Athens most of all.